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August 28, 2019 at 1:33 pm
In the lecture notes for example 8 the answer is given as 6.07 ————– *5% 6.07 ×10.22
The denominator shouldn’t that be 6.07 +10.22? This I’ve been scratching my head and redoing my workings trying to get back to the answer and this is the only way I know how.
John Moffat says
August 20, 2018 at 6:32 am
Please ask this sort of question in the Ask the Tutor Forum, and not as a comment on a lecture.
August 15, 2018 at 10:16 pm
sir for ( eg 8) redeemable debt how do you determine which discount rate to start from for IRR.
like u started at 10 % how do we determine this?
August 20, 2018 at 6:34 am
I make it clear in the lectures on investment appraisal (where the calculation of IRR is the same) that you can use any two ‘guesses’. I happen to choose 10% as my first ‘guess’ because it is in the middle the tables.
August 15, 2018 at 11:02 am
Hi John! Since scientific calculators are allowed in the exam, can’t we just calculate the exact IRR using the fact that at IRR, NPV = 0? CF1/(1+x)^1+CF2/(1+x)^2+……-CF0=0 and then solve for x.
Also, I am using Casio fx-991ex calculator, is it allowed. It is non-programmable calculator but as regular scientific calculators that can solve for the value of ‘x’. Please advise.
August 15, 2018 at 7:05 pm
You can, provided that letters never appear on the calculator screen.
However you will see when you practice questions in your Revision Kit that the questions are designed in such a way as to test your understanding – it is not a maths exam and doing what you suggest will almost certainly be of no help at all. The exam is a professional exam and not simply testing that you know how to use a calculator 🙂
In Section C of the exam, the marks are for your workings and so just using a calculator will not get the marks.
August 15, 2018 at 7:59 pm
Thank you sir! I really appreciate your elaborative answers/suggestions. Thank you again for being so patient with us. 🙂
May 5, 2018 at 4:15 pm
Fantastic lecture as always!
I am stuying for P4 at the moment and I find it very useful to refresh my memory in some subjects from F9 by watching your video again.
Thank you for your hard work.
May 6, 2018 at 9:15 am
Thank you for your comment 🙂
November 26, 2017 at 11:20 am
Dear sir, I have a question regarding cost of debt
In one of the questions i was doing it says that the company has in issue 200k 10% debentures that are redeemable at par in 2 years, and they have a current market value of 105.3 per cent.
in the answer it shows that the cost is 95.3 in year 0. is it constant that the capital is market value less interest (10 in this case?) I don’t understand how the capital cost is calculated.
November 26, 2017 at 3:06 pm
In future please ask this sort of question in the Ask the Tutor Forum, and not as a comment on a lecture.
I would assume without seeing the question, that the market value is quoted cum int (or alternatively it says that the interest is about to be paid, which means the same thing). We need the ex int market value (as I explain in my lectures) and therefore you need to subtract the interest about to be paid.
September 4, 2017 at 9:30 pm
In Example 8, since debentures are redeemed at premium of 10% at the end of 5 years, wont there be an expense of $2 each year (which in itself is not a cash flow) but it will reduce the tax expense by 2*30% = 0.6 each year .
Why is this not taken into account for calculating cost of capital?
August 5, 2017 at 2:45 pm
Thanks again for such wonderful lectures.
For the sake of my confusion, for Example 8 when we are calculating cost of debt to the company, wouldn’t it make more sense that the cash flow in Time0 (issue of debt) a positive 85, while the payment of interest and redemption from Time1-5 negative 6 p.a. and negative 110 at Time5?
August 5, 2017 at 5:13 pm
If you want to do that then fine – the IRR will still be the same. (All the signs will be reversed, but and NPV of +0 is the same as and NPV of -0).
The reason why we tend to show the flows the way we do is that we are used to having the flows this way when calculating the IRR of projects. Reversing the signs can make it more confusing for some people.
July 10, 2017 at 2:51 pm
Sir in the any question for redeemable debt if it is asked find cost of bebt , do we need to find investors required rate of return or cost to company?
July 10, 2017 at 3:27 pm
If you are asked to find the cost of debt then that is the cost to the company.
February 19, 2017 at 3:00 pm
Hi John, Amazing lectures thank you!
I want to clarify something regarding example 8. I understand the use of IRR in determining the interest rate – choosing two different percentages and hence you used 10 and 15.
What I don’t understand is why did you not use a DF of 7% ( 6 the debentures rate /85 the ex int) as you did in example 7 to calculate the Re (return on investment).
I thought the DF % to use is usually the same % as the rate of investors return.
February 19, 2017 at 3:45 pm
In example 7, the debt is irredeemable and then we can use coupon rate/market value
In example 8, the dent is redeemable and then we have to calculate the IRR.
(You could calculate the IRR for example 7 if you wanted, but not only would it obviously take longer, but the answer would only be approximate whereas here it is exact.)
February 19, 2017 at 8:20 pm
That makes perfect sense. Thank you for the super fast reply 🙂
February 20, 2017 at 6:46 am
You are welcome 🙂
November 15, 2016 at 3:36 pm
As we studied that the cost of bank loan is “Interest * (1 – t)” because there is no premium or discount when redeemed at the end of the loan.
In Kaplan book, it is mentioned: “Where the debt is redeemable at its current MV, the position of the investor is the same as a holder of irredeemable debt.”
Does both of the statements have the same meaning? Can you please explain by numbers i.e., how come the return is same for redeemable and irredeemable debts?
Thanks as always,
November 15, 2016 at 5:03 pm
If you want numbers, then you must ask in the Ask the Tutor Forum and not as a comment on a lecture.
The two statements do mean the same. The cost of the debt is obviously the interest that has to be paid, and in the case of redeemable debt repayable at a premium, then the premium makes the overall cost higher. If there is no premium, then the cost is only that of the interest.
November 17, 2016 at 10:18 am
You did not say anything about discount. Is there any debt that is redeemed at discount ? What will be the effect of the discount on the overall cost ?
November 17, 2016 at 4:05 pm
No – debt is either redeemed at par (nominal value) or at a premium.
November 5, 2016 at 3:32 pm
Thank you for such lectures.
I have TWO questions: 1. I was proofing that the NPV is ZERO at 11.86%. MV = -85 Interest =(6*5)/((1+0.1186)^5) = 17 Repayment =110/((1+0.1186)^5) = 63 NPV = -5 Can you please comment on the above calculation as I am getting -5 as NPV.
2. Why the investors require the IRR rate (where NPV is ZERO)? As an investory they should require positive NPV which will result in gain for them. Please comment.
November 6, 2016 at 6:42 am
Question # 1 solved. I should have expanded the interest payments and discount them individually.
Question # 2 remains. Why the investors require the IRR rate (where NPV is ZERO)? As an investor, they should require a positive NPV which will result in gain for them. Please comment.
November 6, 2016 at 7:51 am
Have you watched the earlier lectures on the valuation of debt? It is the investors who determine the market value of debt – they get the return they require by fixing the market value at the PV of the future receipts. All we are doing here is ‘working backwards’ to find out what that required return is.
May 15, 2016 at 6:40 pm
excellent lecture, but the only problem i have is how to get the market values of equity and debt. Thank you.
May 16, 2016 at 7:54 am
If you are asked to calculate the cost of capital, then you will be given the market values (as traded securities they will be quoted on the stock exchange and so in practice it is simply a question of looking in the newspapers to find the market value).
As to how the market values are determined in the first place, this is cover in chapters 15 and 16 of the lecture notes and the lectures that of with them.
May 8, 2016 at 2:55 pm
Hello John Sir, thank u very much for those wonderful lectures as always.
I have a question regarding the chosen % for D.F to calculate the IRR. For Kd you took 10% and 15%, and for Company’s cost you took 5% and 10%.
I took 10% and 15% to ease calculations (because we already got annuity and discount values from previous calculation for Kd), but got 9.77% instead of 9.81%, it’s for sure answers will vary as it’s not linear. My question is does the examiner cater for this and allow a margin of error.
May 8, 2016 at 3:28 pm
It is no problem – using two guesses only ever gives an approximate answer (but leave it to two decimal places just so the marker can see from your workings that you know what you are doing.
(However, if you calculated at 10% first, you should have realised that since the NPV is negative then the IRR had to be lower than 10%. It would have therefore been better to make your second guess at lower than 10%.)
If you were asked to calculate an IRR in section A, then you will be told which guesses to use.
May 10, 2016 at 4:17 pm
ok thank you 🙂
May 10, 2016 at 5:03 pm
December 18, 2015 at 2:09 pm
First of all I would like to thank you for your brilliant lectures. They are clear and concise. I have a question in relation to Example 8 part b – Cost to the company.
As per explanation of example 8 the symbols on cash flows are the following:
Time 0 M.V – Negative Cash flow Time 1- 5 Interest – Positive Cash flow Time 5. Repayment – Positive Cash flow
From a cash flow perspective, as this is the cost to the Company, should the cash flows have the opposite symbol? That is:
Time 0 M.V – Positive Cash Flow – Co. receives the money Time 1 – 5 – Negative Cash Flow – Co. is paying interest Time 5: Negative Cash Flow – Co. is repaying Debt finance.
Thank you in advance for your kind response.
December 18, 2015 at 3:19 pm
It doesn’t make any difference at all – an NPV of +0 is the same as an NPV of -0 🙂
Do it whichever way round you want. However the reason we usually to it in the same way round as the lecture is because that is the way round that we are used to setting up the flows when we are calculating the IRR when we are investing in a project.
January 4, 2016 at 12:53 pm
Yes, your answer makes a lot of sense.
That´s great. Thank you John and Happy 2016!
January 4, 2016 at 5:26 pm
You are welcome, and happy new year to you also 🙂
December 9, 2015 at 6:16 pm
Why isn’t the cost of debt for irredeemable debentures simply: the expected return to investors* (1-rate of tax)???
December 9, 2015 at 7:37 pm
If you listen carefully to the lecture then you will find that I actually say that!!!!!
December 9, 2015 at 7:59 pm
i am sorry i meant redeemable!!
December 10, 2015 at 7:23 am
Because only the interest is tax allowable – not the repayment.
December 5, 2015 at 9:56 am
I am getting confused. In example 8 why would the NPV would be 0 if the present value of the receipts is the market value i.e. 85c. I just don’t understand.
And is this a general rule whether we are talking about shares or debt borrowing that the market value of the share or security is the present value of the expected receipts which are dividends in the case of shares and interest in the case of debt borrowing.
October 11, 2015 at 12:11 pm
In Solution to Example 7, why are we diving the Cost of debt with the Current Market Price of 90. Dont we assume that the company always issued it at USD 100 at the time of raising the debt and the cost of capital will always be kd (1-t) for every year till it redeems it, Unless of course there is a redemption at a premium.
Can you kindly clarify.
October 11, 2015 at 12:30 pm
As I explain in the lecture, if it is quoted at 90 p.c. then it means the market value is $90 for every $100 nominal. Therefore the interest each year (given a coupon rate of 8%) is $8 per year. Therefore the return to investors (Kd) is 8/90 = 8.88%, and the cost to the company is Kd(1-T).
The price at which the debt was issued is completely irrelevant.
Here the debt will never be redeemed – the question specifically says that it is irredeemable.
If the debt is redeemable (which is more common in the exam) then the approach is different – we have to calculate the IRR and the cost of debt does not equal Kd(1-T), but this is dealt with in example 8.
I do suggest that you watch the lecture again.
July 24, 2015 at 8:48 am
Hello Mr. Thank you for lectures
How did you get 10% ( you have discounted annuity and repayment at 10%) ?
July 24, 2015 at 9:22 am
I assume that you mean the 10% that I used as part of my calculation of the IRR to get the cost of debt.
When calculating the IRR you make two guesses. I chose 10% as one of the guesses but any two rates will do. Using different guesses does give slightly different answers (because the relationship is not linear) but still gets full marks in the exam.
I do suggest that you watch the earlier lectures on investment appraisal where the IRR calculation is explained in detail.
July 24, 2015 at 9:37 am
Thank You Mr. John You are great teacher
July 24, 2015 at 9:46 am
Thank you 🙂
May 21, 2015 at 11:03 am
Thank you sir this information is very useful..
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