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July 7, 2017 at 12:05 pm
Did you write a -ve 85 in year 0 because it is from the investor’s perspective? If so, Why did you deduct corporation tax from the interest income? Tax allowance is for the companies right?
John Moffat says
July 7, 2017 at 12:48 pm
We show the 85 as negative simply because we are used to calculating IRR’s for projects when the flow at time 0 is an outflow and is followed by inflows.
By all means show 85 as positive and all the other flows as negative – the IRR will obviously be exactly the same.
I only deducted the tax from the interest when calculating the cost of debt to the company – the company gets the tax saving.
May 14, 2017 at 6:49 am
Thanks very much for your teaching, which is super helpful.
I am just wondering in terms of Example 8. For a bond that will be redeemed at a premium, will the premium (say 10% in this case) tax deductible, as it is still part of the Finance Cost? Or, we just follow the rules that we always treat redemption as non-deductible?
Thanks and look forward to your reply.
May 14, 2017 at 7:38 pm
No – for Paper F9 the whole of the repayment (including the premium) is not tax deductible.
December 8, 2016 at 6:43 am
Lecture is superb!
Please find further comments over here: http://opentuition.com/?post_type=topic&p=362129
December 8, 2016 at 7:45 am
Thank you very much (both for this comment and the other post) 🙂
October 15, 2016 at 11:02 am
This is simply straight to point. Exam focused!!!
October 15, 2016 at 5:00 pm
Thank you for the comment 🙂
June 2, 2016 at 1:51 pm
In exams generally they just simply ask to calculate cost of debt, then in that case are we adjusting for tax or not?
June 2, 2016 at 5:50 pm
They certainly do not just ask for the cost of debt – they want it as part of the calculation of the WACC 🙂
But yes, the cost of debt to the company is always calculated after accounting for the tax relief on the interest payments.
(However, the exam does also quite often ask for the calculation of a market value for the debt. This is calculated ignoring tax because it is the investors who determine the market value of the debt and company tax does not affect them.)
June 4, 2016 at 9:53 am
okay, your explanation at the last cleared my confusion. For one question (Sigra Co Dec 2012), I tried to follow your approach but the answer did not match. I am not sure where my calculation went wrong. Can you help me ?
Sigra Co is offering bond offer: 2% coupon bond redeemable in 3 yrs at par
Sigra Co’s non-current liabilties include a 6% coupon bond redeemable in 3 yrs at par currently trading at $104
Tax rate not given (probably because we need to calculate price of bond?)
Year Cash flows($) 5% PV 10% PV
0 (104) 1 (104) 1 (104)
1-3 6 2.723 16.34 2.487 14.92
3 106 0.864 91.58 0.751 79.61
=5% = 13.39
Therefore, r=5%+ (10%-5%)*$3.92/$13.39=6.46% (but in recommended answer it is 4.55%)
Thank you so much!
June 4, 2016 at 4:06 pm
In future you must ask this sort of question in the Ask the Tutor Forum, and not as a comment on a lecture.
Your interest flows are correct ($6 per year for 3 years) but the redemption in 3 years time is at par of $100 (not $106).
May 31, 2016 at 7:12 pm
Maybe this is more a tax question. but is it not inconsistent that interest is taxed, but the premium is not? Would companies not rather elect to structure instruments in such a way that interest is disguised as premium, in order to avoid tax payments on interest for the holders?
June 1, 2016 at 7:18 am
For the recipient it is likely to be taxed.
However personal tax is always ignored in the exam, and therefore the recipient receives the full interest and the full premium.
The only tax considered is the tax on the company (and it is considered then calculating the cost of debt to the company). Interest payments are allowable for the company and therefore save tax for the company, the repayment is not tax allowable and doesn’t save tax.
June 5, 2016 at 2:12 pm
Thanks Mike 🙂
BTW – great lectures!
July 12, 2015 at 8:34 pm
Planning to write this course in September and I just wanna start now pls lecturer is this advisable? Can 4 hours of dedication per day take me to the pass mark?
July 13, 2015 at 7:25 am
This would be better posted on one of the forums rather than as a comment on a lecture!!
Yes – there is no reason why 4 hours a day should not be sufficient to be able to pass.
July 13, 2015 at 6:49 pm
June 20, 2015 at 12:14 pm
Sir, pls. correct me:
Kd is the return required by the investors, which is different from cost to the company because of the existence of tax- (1-t).
Ke though is the same as the cost of the company as there is no tax relief for equity.
Am I right?
June 20, 2015 at 2:14 pm
True – Kd is the return to investors which is pre-tax. The cost to the company is Kd(1-T) if it is irredeemable debt. However if (as is more likely in the exam) it is redeemable debt then it does not equal Kd(1-T) – we need to calculate the IRR of the after-tax flows (whereas Kd is the IRR of the pre-tax flows).
June 20, 2015 at 4:19 pm
Thank you Sir. 🙂
August 27, 2015 at 11:43 pm
I am a little confused. You have mentioned that if debt is REDEEMABLE than it does NOT equal KDx(1-T). if that is the case than why in example 8 part 2 (redeemable debt) you have considered the coupon rate of 4.2 pa. That is $6 less 30%. If we were to follow your advise than the rate considered p.a should be 6% on nominal i.e. $6 because the example 8 states it is a redeemable debt.
Appreciate your clarification.
August 28, 2015 at 9:11 am
The coupon rate gives the actual $ interest paid. This is allowable for tax and so the net payment is indeed $6 x 70% = $4.20.
This is not the cost of debt. The cost of debt is part 2 is 10% whereas in part 1 (without tax) the return to investors is 11.86%
The cost of debt does not equal the return to investors x 70%.
As I explain in the lecture, it is because although the interest is tax allowable, the repayment is not tax allowable.
September 3, 2016 at 2:34 am
Since the IRR is already after tax, can we pluck in this Kd into the WACC straight, without providing for another (1-T) as in the WACC formula?
September 3, 2016 at 6:54 am
September 4, 2016 at 10:11 am
Thank you John!
September 4, 2016 at 12:23 pm
You are welcome 🙂
June 20, 2015 at 10:03 am
Example 7 part a, the cost of debt (kd) is 8.89%. After calculating you said that if the same was to be issued in stock market, the investors would desire the same return, otherwise why would they invest.
I didn’t understand this.
Also why is Kd calculated? the cost of debt is already known i.e, 8%. So when Kd is calculated, there will be 2 cost of debt percentages i.e, 8% and 8.89% . What is it’s difference?
June 20, 2015 at 2:16 pm
8% is not the cost of debt. It is the coupon rate (the interest on nominal). Maybe when the debt was originally issued, 8% was an attractive rate. However, if investors were to buy the debt now on the stock exchange they would get a return of 8.89%. So if new debt were to be issued only offering 8% nobody would buy it – the company will have to offer 8.89% for it to be attractive.
You may find the free F9 lectures on the cost of capital to be helpful.
Thank you Sir, I understood now. 🙂
May 24, 2015 at 11:42 am
Why is our aim to get NPV close to zero when we do the two guesses or is that the rule
May 24, 2015 at 7:37 pm
The market value is the present value of the future receipts, so the net present value needs to be zero.
February 18, 2015 at 2:09 am
Hi Sir Good Evening,
I would like to clarify one point. Is it Possible to use two negative PV cash flows when doing an IRR Calculation?
February 18, 2015 at 8:00 am
Yes it is – in the same way as normal.
One positive and one negative gives a better approximation, but if you do end up with two positives (or two negatives) then you can still go ahead with them.
February 19, 2015 at 12:42 am
Thank you very much.
October 18, 2014 at 7:26 pm
how many hours required for p4 lectures ??
October 18, 2014 at 8:02 pm
Sorry, but I have no idea! Assume on average about 40 minutes per lecture.
October 18, 2014 at 9:14 pm
want to end these in 10 days .. is it possible??
October 2, 2014 at 10:37 am
really helpful as i m doing selfstudiesi want tgo make sure which studyguide and revision kit useful 4 me whether kaplan or BPP.
October 2, 2014 at 12:25 pm
Kaplan and BPP Revision Kits are both good – it makes no difference which one you chose.
September 15, 2014 at 9:48 pm
When I click on the p4 lecturers..the video that plays is for p5. What should I do to play the p4 videos.
September 16, 2014 at 8:08 am
The lectures are all working fine – the problem must be at your end.
I suggest that you clear the cache and the history in your browser.
If that does not work then you will have to try another browser.
September 16, 2014 at 8:29 am
Thank you let me try…
September 15, 2013 at 5:12 pm
Very nice lectures, but i have a question plz help me to explain
eg 7 & 8 in chapter 7. which one has higher cost btw for Irredeemable debt and redeemable debt? and you guest discount rate in example 8 based on what criteria ?. Your result is far than 6%
September 16, 2013 at 8:34 am
I am not sure what you mean by the first part of your question – they are two separate examples and in example 7 the cost of debt is 6.22% whereas in the second example it is 10%.
The fact that one is irredeemable and the other redeemable just means that we do the arithmetic differently – it is not the reason that one has a higher cost that the other. Either of the two could have been higher.
In example 8, we need to calculate the internal rate of return and the approach is exactly the same as when you calculated IRR for projects in Paper F9 – we make two guesses and then approximate between them to find where the NPV is zero. I guessed at 5% and 10% for part (a), but I could have made any two guesses.
For part (b) I guessed at 10% (simply because 10% is in the middle of the tables). If the answer had not come so close to zero then I would have made a second guess and approximated in the same way as I did for part (a).
There is no reason that the answer should be close to 6% which is the coupon rate. What we are trying to calculate in part (a) is the return that investors are currently getting if they buy the existing debt on the stock exchange. Since they are currently getting 11.86%, then there is no way that they would lend more money to the company unless they were offered 11.86% (but it would actually cost the company less because they get tax relief on the interest, which is why workings (b) are necessary).
February 12, 2013 at 3:02 pm
how does you got -0.77 i didn’t understand .from 1-5 year present value was 15.92 and at 5 year was 68.31 so what did you do to get -0.77.
other thing is suppose answer is no close to zero but still negative so should we have to guess other percentage less then 10%
September 16, 2013 at 8:37 am
-0.77 is the net present value of the flows: 15.92 + 68.31 – 85 = -0.77
We are calculating the Internal Rate of Return of the flows in exactly the same was as we do for projects (and as you did for F9) by making two guesses and then approximating between them (as we did in part (a) of this question).
For part (b) I was ‘lucky’ because the NPV was virtually zero at 10% and so I did not need a second guess. If it was not so close to zero then I would have had to make a second guess and approximate in the same sort of way as for part (a).
November 12, 2012 at 10:32 pm
August 29, 2012 at 4:57 am
i cannot load the video 🙁 please somebody help?
August 29, 2012 at 8:10 am
Please visit the support page: http://opentuition.com/support/
August 7, 2012 at 3:56 pm
Thank you very much for your reply.
July 20, 2012 at 2:13 pm
i have a small doubt.
Can i appear for the other ACCA optional specialisations which i didn’t attempt, even after completing my ACCA qualification.
July 20, 2012 at 4:04 pm
@krishnamr007, Yes you can – you can find out about it on the ACCA website.
June 2, 2012 at 9:01 am
I am not getting audio on the lectures. Is this problem unique to me? I need to revise n short on time.
April 24, 2012 at 1:01 pm
Thank you for your lesson.
I have a question, too. Why the pricing in example 7 & 8 quoted in ex int (excluding interest?)
And I can’t remember the difference in various debts. I remember there was a exam question about vanila bond. Can you give me a more detailed information about different type of debts?
August 7, 2012 at 2:15 pm
@annalla, Debt is always quoted ex int in the exam, unless you are told otherwise. Here the questions actually say that they are ex int (i.e. that interest has just been paid).
Vanilla debt is debt with no unusual features (so not convertible, no warrants attached, no premium on redemption – just interest each year and then repayment at par.)
April 10, 2012 at 5:39 pm
How can I download this??? Coz I need to vew these in my office, i dont get time at home!!
April 10, 2012 at 5:42 pm
lectures are on line only
that’s the only way this site exists and is free
April 3, 2012 at 9:53 pm
It is great lectures….
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