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May 14, 2016 at 11:36 pm
Thank you Prof for an excellent lecture. For the first time, this subject has been made very clear just like you did to maximin, maximax and minimax regret.
However, at point C, you did not subtract the cost of buying market research from 7.63m. If you do, the outcome at point C would be 5.63m.
If I am correct, the right decision would be not buying the market research and doing expensive refurbishment.
John Moffat says
May 15, 2016 at 8:13 am
I did subtract the cost.
It is 200,000 (0.2M) and I do write down that the result of buying market research is 7.63 – 0.2 = 7.43M (and therefore they should buy the market research).
May 19, 2016 at 2:25 am
Waooo! You remain the prof. Thanks a lot. I took 0.2m for 2m.
We remain grateful to you for your excellent lectures.
May 19, 2016 at 7:37 am
You are welcome 🙂
May 14, 2016 at 2:30 pm
Is there a way to calculate the value of perfect information from a decision tree? If so could you please guide me on what figures to use supposing the value for perfect information was tested in the above question?
May 14, 2016 at 3:24 pm
Not from the original tree – no.
It would need a new tree (but there is no need to draw a tree unless the questions asks for it).
May 15, 2016 at 4:49 pm
Thank you sir.
May 16, 2016 at 7:49 am
April 30, 2016 at 5:02 pm
Thanks OT Mr Moffat for all the wonderful lectures. Pls I want to know if you are drawing the decision tree is it a compulsory to put all figures we calculated in the decision tree? and also is it a must to indicates the points(A,B,C) in the tree?
May 1, 2016 at 8:28 am
In Section B of the exam (which is where decision trees would appear) the marks are for the workings rather than for the final answer.
How you show your workings is up to you (as long as they are clear to the marker) but labelling the points so as to refer to the workings is the best way.
May 2, 2016 at 11:23 pm
OK thank you Sir
May 3, 2016 at 7:46 am
April 10, 2016 at 9:30 pm
F5 made easy to understand. Thank you Mr John Moffat
April 11, 2016 at 6:48 am
February 20, 2016 at 12:15 pm
whenever i try watching video…below message appears
can somebody help me please
there was an issue with playback”
February 20, 2016 at 1:44 pm
The problem must be at your end, and you should ask on the support page – the link to it is above.
February 11, 2016 at 11:57 am
very clear lecture,was scared of this topic but now its easy like drinking water.i thank God for you.
November 25, 2015 at 2:33 pm
Hi John, I have a small doubt. At point C in the decision tree, there are uncertain outcomes. So the key at point C should be a circle. However you have made a box while writing “C”. Is it for presentation or point C is a decision point?
November 25, 2015 at 4:05 pm
It is not how you write the number or letter to refer to the points that matters.
It is where the lines split that you either draw a box (for a decision) or a ‘dot’ when it is uncertain. At point C I have put a ‘dot’ which is correct.
(But make sure that you also have a key showing below that a square = decision, and a dot = uncertain (because there is not a standard – different people use different symbols))
November 21, 2015 at 2:37 pm
hallo Mr. Moffat,
since they decided that in case of poor results they will consider only cheap refurbishment, why then do you add the shut down option on the decision tree when dealing with the poor results.
November 21, 2015 at 2:44 pm
Saying that they will consider the cheap refurbishment does not mean they will do it. They will consider it and then maybe they will do it, or maybe they won’t do it (and so shut down).
October 3, 2015 at 2:10 pm
“In either case, the probability of the refurbishment achieving a good result has been estimated to be 2/3.”
Sorry I am not native English speaker, so ‘either’ mean in each/every case. Right?
I think this sentence would be really tricky in case I hadn’t seen the lecture first.
October 3, 2015 at 2:27 pm
Yes – you are right (it means in both cases).
May 30, 2015 at 3:18 am
Hello Mr. Moffat,
I learned in class that in the decision tree, the decision points and the outcome points should be labelled from the top right of the tree, then moving across to the left…
I was also taught that the decision forks you drew to indicate the decision you made, were actually supposed to be placed on the decisions you didn’t want to make…
Are these points worth stressing over?
Or the way you did it is acceptable?
May 30, 2015 at 10:38 am
Of course the way I have done it is acceptable (otherwise I would not have done it that way!!!) 🙂
May 29, 2015 at 4:36 pm
Apology dear John, have just rewound the last part of the lecture. Point D clarified my question.
(I just wish we could use colour pens in the exam…)
May 29, 2015 at 4:27 pm
Thank you for your brilliant lectures, I much prefer this style, a bit quicker than in the classroom recording, however, both are good quality.
I have a question on this subject, perhaps a repetition of Chris’s question in Oct 14. As we are working the decisions backwards, we would have known the “best” option to go for. In this instance, the option to go with market research with expensive refurbishment. However, at this point, if the return is then diminished by the cost of the market research, would going without the market research and refurb expensively be the better option? Thank you kindly.
May 19, 2015 at 6:07 am
dear Mr. Moffat , I have been doing these decision tree questions and find a difference that has often caused my answer to come out wrong.Here is a sample question:
Q.a company has prepared the design for a new product .It can either sell the design for $100000 or attempt to develop the design into a marketable product at a cost of 150000 .If the company decides to develop the product the chances of success are .7 .If the attempt fails the design can be sold for 20000.If the attempt succeeds the business has the choice of either selling the design and developed product for 180000 or marketing the product.If the product is marketed then there is a .6 probability that the product will generate a cash inflow of 800000 and a 0.4 probability that it will generate a cash outflow of (100000).Both figures exclude items previously mentioned.
, the answer shows tan ev of 164000 of developing.This has been arrived by subtracting the 150000 from each outcome of developing i.e. from both 800000 and -100000 BEFORE taking the expected value of these outcomes.Now i simply took 800000 and -100000 as is and later when i rolled back to the point where development came i.e. the first of the two branches of developing or selling , there I subtracted the 150000.But my answer doesn’t match , in the question that you have done in the video .Which approach should we take when we have a common cost for one single Option leading numerous other options should we subtract that cost from each option and then take expected values or should we find out the EV of that option first and later subtract that cost.
Please solve this confusion Mr. Moffat you’ve always been great help.Appreciate all that you do.(p.s i got an 85 in f3 from Only watching your videos so Thanks mate!)
May 19, 2015 at 8:15 am
In future, please ask questions like this in the Ask the Tutor Forum, not as a comment on a lecture.
Either approach will always give the same answer (and the 164,000 is correct).
If you take the 150,000 from all of the flows before you start rolling back, then second decision is the choice better selling and receiving a net 130,000; or marketing and receiving ((0.6 x 650,000) – (0.4 x 250000)) = 290,000. So you chose to market.
So now the expected value of continuing in the first place is (0.7 x 290,000) – (0.3 x 130,000) = 164,000.
(I am guessing that maybe you did not deal properly with the fact that the net outcome of some of the options is negative)
April 19, 2015 at 8:13 am
Thank you very much indeed for such an excellent lecture sir,i did understand everything else in risk and uncertainty lecture but bit confued about the aritmatic of maximin and minimax,could you help please? 😀
April 19, 2015 at 12:43 pm
You have asked this in the Ask the Tutor Forum, and I have answered you there.
April 19, 2015 at 1:15 pm
Opss thanks a lot ????
April 11, 2015 at 3:24 am
Goodday! How do you know that that buying a market strategy and getting a poor result does not include an option of expensive refurbishing?
Do we have to start the decision tree from the market strategy and why?
April 11, 2015 at 8:57 am
The question says in the last sentence “….if the research indicates a poor result, then they will only be prepared to consider the cheaper refurbishment”
We do not buy marketing strategy – we are considering buying market research.
The tree needs to show the decisions in the order in which they will be made. The first decision will be whether or not it is worth buying the research and so this is the first decision to show on the tree.
April 5, 2015 at 12:16 am
Is sensitivity analysis still part of the F5 Syllabus? I did review the syllabus 2015 and didn’t see it and also i didn’t see it in your notes or lectures so far, I have only done up until Risk and Uncertainty. I know it is a small part of the chapter under Risk and Uncertainty, however as I said before I didn’t see it in the syllabus, if it is in the syllabus maybe i missed it.
I will greatly appreciate your response.
April 5, 2015 at 12:33 am
It never was part of F5 – it is examined in F9.
April 5, 2015 at 2:15 am
ok. Thank you!
I saw it in a BBP F5 text while reading information on value for perfect and imperfect information.
April 5, 2015 at 2:19 am
oh sorry about that sir, my question about minimax regret was: Does it matter how you draw up your Regret Table? Meaning as in your example: if demand/sales or contract size goes horizontal or vertical?
April 5, 2015 at 9:59 am
It does not matter which way round you draw your table. All that matters is that it is clear that you understand what you are doing.
March 15, 2015 at 9:20 pm
Thank you John for the detail lectures they are a great resource however could you kindly elaborate The Value of perfect information as it is not available in the course notes also there is no lecture on it. Would appreciate if you could kindly elaborate.
March 16, 2015 at 8:34 am
It is part (c) of example 1 on Page 46 of the Lecture Notes.
At the moment, the lecture does not deal with part (c) – I must re-record it – but the answer at the back of the Lecture Notes should make it clear.
November 21, 2014 at 9:26 pm
Thanks as always John for your brilliance at conveying useful and intelligent information across during every lecture. This one yet again was superb! My comments now will perhaps be the longest you’ve ever had to read on these forums, so my bad.
I have always viewed Decision Trees, amongst a few other topics, as Marmite – you either love or hate them. For me, it’s been a hate journey with DT until recently, when I realised that decision tree questions are best tackled by first understanding what in the world any management accountant are actually attempting to do with the concept in real life.
The more I try to understand the concept rather than just chucking in numbers and probability figures as I read the question, the more grasp of the topic I’m getting. This particular video of yours has just reinforced my take on the topic, as you sort of showed at the beginning part of your working, that it is just best to read and somewhat understand the question first and then draw out the decision tree based on the paragraphs in the question, without being unduly caught up in the complicated bits such as the figures/probabilities just yet. To bug oneself down about the numbers too early on can complicate things and make one’s working a tad messy and confusing.
Just as you have shown in this example, once a meaningful tree (comprising different courses of action as spelt out in the question) has been drawn, then the figures can be slotted in, making sure that one considers carefully what the proceeds are and what the costs are (I particularly like your idea of using a bracket right off in distinguishing the costs).
Ultimately, I have found that the process of establishing a Decision Tree from Left-Right is as important as the backward working from Right-Left, because where the former helps to establish what alternative courses of action or outcomes exist, the latter helps with the actual decision through an assessment of what appears to generate a better result (most likely by way of better revenue).
I am so grateful for the way you have taken the time to demolish (in a good way) this question for better understanding of the concept. I will continue to attempt a few more questions on this topic so I can be more confident on the day of exam, should it come out.
Can’t thank OT enough
Sreekumar G says
November 5, 2014 at 3:45 am
This is lecture is one the best, simple and detailed explanation of a complicated topic….Thanks a lot Sir….your efforts are much appreciated, and I found it extremely useful for the students….
October 23, 2014 at 10:11 am
thanks for such a detailed lecture on this! One question i need to ask though is why don’t we take in the initial cost of the research at say points B etc?
Many thanks in advance.
October 23, 2014 at 1:49 pm
You can, and you will end up with the same result.
I find it easier to list each outflow and inflow separately and then take them into account when we work backwards through the tree.
October 23, 2014 at 2:47 pm
thank you. Yes i appreciate in this case that the outcome is still the same however, had the results been closer together the $200,000 would have a bearing on which choice we would make…. wouldn’t it? I may be over complicating this but it’s just so i understand in my mind rather than just doing the question and assuming.
October 23, 2014 at 2:58 pm
No – the actual final amounts would be exactly the same.
Don’t forget that at points A and B in my answer, they are the outcomes if we do not do the research.
Whether or not it is worth doing the research is one of the decisions that we have to make.
May 26, 2014 at 3:35 pm
Sir can you please tell me why the decision doesn’t start with 3 branches…shut down, buy market research and no market research?
May 26, 2014 at 5:21 pm
You can start like that if you want.
But it would make no difference at all because from the ‘no market research’ branch you would immediately have another decision – ‘expensive’ or ‘cheap’ refurbishment.
(The tree is only to help keep track of the various decisions, so for this bit of it you can draw it either way)
May 27, 2014 at 11:45 am
I understand, thank you.
May 21, 2014 at 4:23 am
Hi John. In the third paragraph of this example, (in EITHER case the probability of the refurbishment achieving a good result has been estimated to be 2/3). Why are we not using 2/3 on the ‘buy market research’ path?
May 21, 2014 at 7:58 am
Buying market research is our choice – so buying itself is not uncertain and therefore no probability is relevant.
As to what happens if we do buy the research, the question says (in the next to the last paragraph) that the probability then of the result being good is 91%.
(If the research was perfect, then if it said ‘good result’ then getting a good result would be certain. Here, the research is not perfect and so it is not certain to be ‘good result’ but it has a very high probability. Similarly, if the research says ‘bad result’ then the probability of the research being wrong and getting a ‘good result’ is 13%)
I hope that makes sense.
May 21, 2014 at 9:11 am
I get it now. Thank you sir.
April 15, 2014 at 10:44 am
Dear John. I’ve sat only F4 so far and don’t remember whether we could use black pen only. Are we allowed to use different colours in F5 to make our graphs and decision trees more understandable?
April 15, 2014 at 10:49 am
You are only allowed to use a black pen 🙁
February 15, 2014 at 5:23 pm
Pheeww! 😛 A bit complex I must say! Sir, I have one question. For the final answer you said: Buy market research and if the result is good do the expensive refurb. If result is poor then shut.
I agree with the first part i.e buy market research and if result is good then do expensive refurb which will give us 7.43M. But if we shut we will only get 5M.
How about we don’t do market research and get 7.17M, ain’t it better than getting 5M if we shut?
February 15, 2014 at 9:04 pm
Maybe, but you can’t change your mind! Either you do the market research or you do not – it is only later you find out the result, but then it is too late to change your mind.
February 12, 2014 at 8:29 pm
Can’t be said that it was easy from the very beginning… but went through the lecture at least twice it became clear. Many thanks for your fantastic explanation!!!! It’s really helpfull !
November 29, 2013 at 3:59 am
Hi sir..just wanna ask….um can a decision point (the square) arises after an outcome( the circle) as the usual way is that in a decision tree it only has ONE decision point which is the square at the far left( the beginning) and a lot of outcome….
November 29, 2013 at 8:13 am
Yes it can – there can be several decision points. In fact it is more likely that there will be several and not just one decision point.
(Maybe the first decision is which machine to buy, but then after a year or two we need to make a second decision as to whether or not to sell a machine and the decision can be affected by how well or badly the machine has been doing in the first one or two years.)
The example in the course notes is an example of this.
October 4, 2013 at 6:37 pm
Pls help!!! i don’t understand decision trees. I hope it doesn’t come out in December 2013 exams.
October 4, 2013 at 6:46 pm
Decision trees are a bit less likely in December because they were asked in the June 2013 exam.
However, they could be asked. I cannot really add anything to what I say in the lecture, but if you say where you have the problem then I will try my best to help!
October 4, 2013 at 6:59 pm
Thank you very much Mr. John Moffat. You are one of the best teachers I’ve listened to. I just don’t understand when to start calculating the expected values. I pray it doesn’t show up this December.
November 11, 2013 at 9:13 am
don’t bother man. Decision trees won’t come up in Dec 2013. I’m sure. Take my word. Just ignore it.
November 11, 2013 at 4:28 pm
As I wrote before, it is unlikely that there will be decision trees in the December exam, but nothing is ever certain 🙂
September 29, 2013 at 8:53 am
Sir John, You are really brilliant. And Opentuition is a miracle for me and to my success by Allah Almight.
September 10, 2013 at 5:15 pm
hello sir. as decision tree and life cycle was there in June13 attempt. will it come again in dec13?
September 10, 2013 at 10:06 pm
I am not the examiner and so I do not know!!
It is maybe less likely in December, but it is too dangerous to guess questions – you must be happy with the whole syllabus if you want to be successful in F5.
September 11, 2013 at 6:24 am
July 5, 2013 at 7:10 am
The problems with expected values mentioned at the end of part A of Risk and Uncertainty include: Actual profit will not be equal to expected value. I understood that it will be equal to one of the profit figures in real life and not the average(expected value)
We have used expected values for our decision tree calculations. How reliable is our decision tree in real life? Wouldn’t the profit from refurbishing be either one or the other and not an average(expected value)?
July 5, 2013 at 11:45 am
Decision trees themselves are simply a way of setting out the various things that can happen. They can be very useful in real life.
The decision making itself is the same as for any expected value problem and has the same limitations.
July 5, 2013 at 1:43 pm
June 1, 2013 at 4:48 pm
i am worried about this…too long
June 4, 2013 at 1:24 pm
And same question was in paper 😀
May 23, 2013 at 12:00 pm
great lecture i did benefit a lot …thank you ..but i am wondering why u did not include the aspect of the VALUE OF PERFECT INFORMATION which was recently added to the syllabus?
June 1, 2013 at 5:00 pm
If you look at example 1 in the course notes, you will see that perfect information is covered. The changes to the syllabus were announced over six months ago and our course notes were updated immediately.
Perfect information does not require the use of a decision tree (although obviously you could draw a decision tree just as you could draw one for any decision under uncertainty. In practice you would only draw a tree if it helped you – there is no need in example 1; in the exam you only draw a tree if you are asked to.
May 23, 2013 at 2:27 am
After going through the lecture at least twice, I finally understand every aspect of example 2 that you explain and will attempt the 2012 past paper question. It was a reall………………y good lecture!! I must say though, that like ‘Miss A’ I was wondering how come you included the ‘shut down’ option if Combi did the market research and the result was poor, when the question indicated that they would only be prepared to consider the cheap refurbishment. I felt that you included it because the only reason they would also consider shutting down would be due to cost factor, since if the result is poor it doesn’t make sense to invest in an expensive refurbishing. plus with or without the research the shut down will yield 5m, which is less than the 4.6m return from the cheap refurbishing with the research. Let me know if my logic is heading in the right direction.
May 23, 2013 at 5:36 am
Yes – your logic is correct. Although you would only consider the cheap refurbishing, you could decide to shut down if refurbishing were to lose money.
May 17, 2013 at 3:41 pm
Sexy example 2 🙂
May 12, 2013 at 8:15 pm
Kinda lost, lengthy question and a bit confusing I agree.
May 13, 2013 at 12:42 pm
its not that confusing. ALL the information is given in the question and we just have to assort it out carefully, But i will agree that it is LENGHTY.
May 10, 2013 at 5:29 pm
OOOOH MY GOD! I THINK ALL OF MY 3HRS WILL GET EXHAUSTED HERE.. TOO LONG..TIME CONSUMING HEISH..! THE TREE HAS GOT TOO MANY BRANCHES A!
May 13, 2013 at 9:08 pm
It is very unlikely that the exam would ask for a complicated tree. More importantly she is likely to just test your understanding with a fairly simply problem (and a fairly simple tree).
Do realise that the whole point of the exam is to test that you understand what you are doing – not to try and make you do terribly complicated things!
May 6, 2013 at 9:42 pm
Thank you, on side note Messi > Cristiano lol 😀
April 22, 2013 at 8:36 pm
dont know how to thank….simply great……
March 29, 2013 at 12:37 pm
this is easy but shall be time consuming.
March 29, 2013 at 4:33 pm
True, although it is likely that anything in the exam will be relatively easy (but will therefore only be a part of a question).
March 25, 2013 at 3:20 pm
Yep, I’m sort of lost too. He did a good job though, but my brain just gave up after a while lol.
March 23, 2013 at 10:43 pm
very good lecture…..can any body tell me,is this q came in past exams….?
March 25, 2013 at 5:10 pm
No – because it was not in the syllabus before. But it is now 🙂
August 24, 2013 at 4:29 pm
Look @ Jun 2013 q1
March 23, 2013 at 1:33 pm
hahahahahahaha the lecture is awesome and I laughed so hard when you said: “I am sure your are completely lost by now.”
I am!! lol
March 18, 2013 at 3:49 pm
Beautiful lecture …..it seems rather a lengthy question…how often has it been examined and what is the best approach to it in terms of time mgt??
March 7, 2013 at 1:03 am
Aaargghhhh……it is no doubt a great lecture but I fount it to complicated:((
January 30, 2013 at 5:03 am
good lecture thank you sir.
December 3, 2012 at 6:05 am
Woah Thank You For this lecture! 😀 This helped me a lot!
November 30, 2012 at 4:05 pm
i am afraid you have not calculated the cost of the market research of 200000
November 30, 2012 at 4:08 pm
@arjunudayp91, even if u do it doesnt change the answer :
7.6316m-200000=7.4316….stands better to the later option ……..is tht rite…..???
November 2, 2012 at 3:16 pm
good lecture sir thank you 🙂
Miss A.. says
October 18, 2012 at 8:17 am
Dear Sir, I can’t understand that why do we have an option of shutting down the office when market research has poor results ??The question indicates that if we do market research & the result is poor, then we will only be prepared to consider the cheaper refurbishment?
shouldn’t only be cheaper refurbishment option be there if the market research has poor result , as per the question’s statement? ( And NO shutting down or expensive refurbishment should be included)
October 18, 2012 at 6:13 am
I am not getting continueos lecture for 2 days now,video goes off whiles watching and has to be played over and over again.
Please check this for me.
October 18, 2012 at 8:42 am
i’m afraid, that problem is at your end..
September 21, 2012 at 2:50 pm
That was simple and precise lecture on Decision Tree!! thank you!! I benefited a lot!!
September 16, 2012 at 3:42 am
I have a question
31:36 – 31:57
Do Mkt Research/Good Result/Expensive refurbishment.
The lecture calculate
Net expected value = Expected value – refurbishment cost
= 12.87m – 4m = 8.87m
Why didnt include the cost for market research:
Net expected value = Expected value – market research cost – refurbishment = 12.87m – 4m – 0.2m = 8.67m
I do notice its just a small difference and it would not affect the final answer but it got me puzzled abit.
September 16, 2012 at 7:09 am
Ahhh its ok I got it. 😉
September 16, 2012 at 3:23 pm
@numero270, Great :-))
August 20, 2012 at 11:31 pm
Excellent lecture on decision tree. Thank you.
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